3phase switch recomendations

dmitry.rozovik · May 3, 2023, 6:51pm

I would start from a few questions:

What is the compressor power consumption (depending on this a preference may go to the regular contactor or triac based (solid state relay)?
Does it needs any additional features (soft start, short cirquit or undervoltage protection, phase order monitoring)?
What is the preferred control voltage (it could be AC 120/220 (depending on region) or 12/24 DC; maybe something different)?
What is the compressor coils wiring schematic (triange or star/Y; with or without neutral line)? Though it is a secondary question it may help to choose.

LeDo · May 3, 2023, 8:14pm

I was thinking of controling Airpol A50 a 7,5 kw compressor but the power consumption is quite high on that thing. My solar plant rarely could power it up. I think I'll go with the 230v switches and buy a smaller air compressor.
But @kkossev Your suggestion would work.

MrFarmer · May 4, 2023, 8:40am

Hi,

There are iskra switches you can control the on off with using a simple z-wave/zigbee switch on the a1-2 control https://www.iskra.eu/f/docs/10808/bistable-switches.pdf. One type is used in combination with the Qubino 3-phase meter, but that makes it expensive again.

Cheers Rene

dmitry.rozovik · May 4, 2023, 9:02am

Example of what my qestions were related to and how to calculate contactor requirements:

Assuming the compressor engine is close to this one (I did not found specific one so just took something for illustration)

WEG W22 Cast Iron Premium Efficiency (IE3) 7.5kW 2 Pole 3 phase AC Motor.
132S Frame, B3 Foot Mount with top mounted terminal box.

Power: 7.5kW at 400V or 690V 50Hz.
Speed: 2925rpm at 50Hz.
Torque: 24.5Nm at 50Hz.
Full Load Current with links in DELTA (400V 3ph): 14.1A
Full Load Current with links in STAR (690V 3ph): 8.17A.
Power Factor: 0.85 when mains connected at 50Hz.

From it's spec is clear that in the simplest case the connection will be DELTA/triangle (otherwise it will not give its full power).

For powerfull engines both connection schematics can be used (at first a STAR connection to start engine and then delta as a main working one).
It is used to minimize current at the starting period prolonging lifetime for the contactor and engine itself.

So we will have 400V by 14.1A per line. This is inductive load. So aparent power will be 7.5/0.85 (divide by power factor) ~13kVA. (Same for current 14.1/0.85 = ~17A). Now we know peak current that contactor needs to withstand. In reality it should be more to reduce contact deterioration at engine start time due to inrush current. Inrush current can be wery roughly approximated as 4x peak current (for the D type motor). It will be somewhere around 65..68 Amps. (See peak current spec for the contactor/relay). Also protection switches are preferred to be of class D (B and C might falsely disconnect your engine; taking higher amperage will nivelate electric line protection functionality)

To control delta connected engine 2-phase contactor will be enough (but not limited to; should be noted that in this case one line stays connected to the mains). For servicing engine will need to be disconnected entirely enyway for security considerations so there will be 3-phase mechanical switch or something like that.

The schematic might look something like this

LeDo · May 9, 2023, 7:46pm

Have you tested it? Generic driver? controlls all 3 phases at once or do You have to install 3 separate drivers?

kkossev · May 10, 2023, 4:45am

I have the single-phase model circuit breaker (phase and neutral), but the 3-phase model should work fine with this driver.
The 3 phases should be controlled at once. The 3 phase breakers are coupled mechanically together, it is dangerous to switch off or on just one phase.

LeDo · May 12, 2023, 8:52am

Well, it connects but won't control the switch.

Debug

kkossev · May 12, 2023, 8:56am

Make a screenshot of the Device Details - Data section (at the bottom of the device web page)

Was the driver selected automatically when you first paired the device to Hubitat?

LeDo · May 12, 2023, 9:23am

Not automatically I've added the device then selected the driver the state is wrong device is on it indicates its off.
At first when I tried to operate it blinked 'on' for a sec but then went 'off' again.

kkossev · May 12, 2023, 9:25am

It’s a new model (another manufacturer), so it is not recognised automatically from the driver.

I will add the new manufacturer later tonight, and with a few iterations we will make it work.

kkossev · May 12, 2023, 7:29pm

Hi Leslaw,

I hope that I have found a device profile that is the same or very close to this RTX Circuit Breaker.
It is a strange hybrid between the Tuya (Hoch) RCBO mechanic and MatSee Plus DIN Rail firmware inside .. : (

Let's first make the switch On/Off working.

Update the driver to the new version 1.7.6 "2023/05/12 10:01 PM" from the dev. branch.
Delete the device (the red 'REMOVE DEVICE' button at the bottom of the web page)
Pair it again to HE. This driver should be selected automatically this time
Turn the debug logs option on.
Try switching on/off from the device web page. Is it controlled?
Try switching on/off from the circuit breaker itself. Is the state reflected back to HE?
Power off the device (use the other circuit breaker that feeds the AC 3 phases in) and then turn it back on.
Please select all the logs as a text, copy and paste as a text here. You can use the cog wheel tool in the forum editor to hide the big logs... Or you can just send me a DM with the logs.

Sending the logs as text (not as a picture/screenshot) is very important for me because otherwise I can't simulate the messages received from the device.

LeDo · May 12, 2023, 8:23pm

Thank You for Your hard work! I've installed the new driver, but rest will have to wait till tomorrow (don't have access to the device). I'll send You the text logs after each step. Hope the cogs match:)

LeDo · May 12, 2023, 8:38pm

Ok I didn't delete the device yet (I'll do that tomorrow) but after the driver change at least online the button works on and off reports correctly.

Debug log
dev:542023-05-12 22:34:38.448debugKompresor ignored power 1650812160 W (exceeds maximum power cap 15000 W)

dev:542023-05-12 22:34:38.443debugKompresor parse: Desc Map: [raw:catchall: 0104 EF00 01 01 0040 00 AB6E 01 00 0000 02 01 38C813030010455455312D494F542D5A696762656500, profileId:0104, clusterId:EF00, clusterInt:61184, sourceEndpoint:01, destinationEndpoint:01, options:0040, messageType:00, dni:AB6E, isClusterSpecific:true, isManufacturerSpecific:false, manufacturerId:0000, command:02, direction:01, data:[38, C8, 13, 03, 00, 10, 45, 54, 55, 31, 2D, 49, 4F, 54, 2D, 5A, 69, 67, 62, 65, 65, 00]]

dev:542023-05-12 22:34:38.438debugKompresor parse: description is catchall: 0104 EF00 01 01 0040 00 AB6E 01 00 0000 02 01 38C813030010455455312D494F542D5A696762656500

dev:542023-05-12 22:34:38.395infoKompresor (18) AlarmSet2 : 67174575

dev:542023-05-12 22:34:38.389debugKompresor parse: Desc Map: [raw:catchall: 0104 EF00 01 01 0040 00 AB6E 01 00 0000 02 01 38C71200000C0101006403010113040100AF, profileId:0104, clusterId:EF00, clusterInt:61184, sourceEndpoint:01, destinationEndpoint:01, options:0040, messageType:00, dni:AB6E, isClusterSpecific:true, isManufacturerSpecific:false, manufacturerId:0000, command:02, direction:01, data:[38, C7, 12, 00, 00, 0C, 01, 01, 00, 64, 03, 01, 01, 13, 04, 01, 00, AF]]

dev:542023-05-12 22:34:38.383debugKompresor parse: description is catchall: 0104 EF00 01 01 0040 00 AB6E 01 00 0000 02 01 38C71200000C0101006403010113040100AF

dev:542023-05-12 22:34:38.342errorjava.lang.NumberFormatException: null on line 1060 (method parse)

dev:542023-05-12 22:34:38.337debugKompresor (06) combined reporting data: [38, C6, 06, 00, 00, 08, 09, 10, 00, 00, 00, 00, 00, 00]

dev:542023-05-12 22:34:38.333debugKompresor parse: Desc Map: [raw:catchall: 0104 EF00 01 01 0040 00 AB6E 01 00 0000 02 01 38C6060000080910000000000000, profileId:0104, clusterId:EF00, clusterInt:61184, sourceEndpoint:01, destinationEndpoint:01, options:0040, messageType:00, dni:AB6E, isClusterSpecific:true, isManufacturerSpecific:false, manufacturerId:0000, command:02, direction:01, data:[38, C6, 06, 00, 00, 08, 09, 10, 00, 00, 00, 00, 00, 00]]

dev:542023-05-12 22:34:38.328debugKompresor parse: description is catchall: 0104 EF00 01 01 0040 00 AB6E 01 00 0000 02 01 38C6060000080910000000000000

dev:542023-05-12 22:34:38.283infoKompresor (09) Fault : 0

dev:542023-05-12 22:34:38.279debugKompresor parse: Desc Map: [raw:catchall: 0104 EF00 01 01 0040 00 AB6E 01 00 0000 02 01 38C50905000100, profileId:0104, clusterId:EF00, clusterInt:61184, sourceEndpoint:01, destinationEndpoint:01, options:0040, messageType:00, dni:AB6E, isClusterSpecific:true, isManufacturerSpecific:false, manufacturerId:0000, command:02, direction:01, data:[38, C5, 09, 05, 00, 01, 00]]

dev:542023-05-12 22:34:38.274debugKompresor parse: description is catchall: 0104 EF00 01 01 0040 00 AB6E 01 00 0000 02 01 38C50905000100

dev:542023-05-12 22:34:38.228debugKompresor Kompresor energy is 0.01 kWh (no change)

dev:542023-05-12 22:34:38.226debugKompresor energy_total=0.01, state.lastResetEnergy=0.0

dev:542023-05-12 22:34:38.224infoKompresor (01) Forward/Real Energy : 1 raw

dev:542023-05-12 22:34:38.221debugKompresor parse: Desc Map: [raw:catchall: 0104 EF00 01 01 0040 00 AB6E 01 00 0000 02 01 38C40102000400000001, profileId:0104, clusterId:EF00, clusterInt:61184, sourceEndpoint:01, destinationEndpoint:01, options:0040, messageType:00, dni:AB6E, isClusterSpecific:true, isManufacturerSpecific:false, manufacturerId:0000, command:02, direction:01, data:[38, C4, 01, 02, 00, 04, 00, 00, 00, 01]]

dev:542023-05-12 22:34:38.217debugKompresor parse: description is catchall: 0104 EF00 01 01 0040 00 AB6E 01 00 0000 02 01 38C40102000400000001

dev:542023-05-12 22:34:38.175debugKompresor (16) switch : 1

dev:542023-05-12 22:34:38.172debugKompresor parse: Desc Map: [raw:catchall: 0104 EF00 01 01 0040 00 AB6E 01 00 0000 02 01 38C31001000101, profileId:0104, clusterId:EF00, clusterInt:61184, sourceEndpoint:01, destinationEndpoint:01, options:0040, messageType:00, dni:AB6E, isClusterSpecific:true, isManufacturerSpecific:false, manufacturerId:0000, command:02, direction:01, data:[38, C3, 10, 01, 00, 01, 01]]

dev:542023-05-12 22:34:38.168debugKompresor parse: description is catchall: 0104 EF00 01 01 0040 00 AB6E 01 00 0000 02 01 38C31001000101

dev:542023-05-12 22:34:20.451debugKompresor ignored power 1650812160 W (exceeds maximum power cap 15000 W)

dev:542023-05-12 22:34:20.444debugKompresor parse: Desc Map: [raw:catchall: 0104 EF00 01 01 0040 00 AB6E 01 00 0000 02 01 38C213030010455455312D494F542D5A696762656500, profileId:0104, clusterId:EF00, clusterInt:61184, sourceEndpoint:01, destinationEndpoint:01, options:0040, messageType:00, dni:AB6E, isClusterSpecific:true, isManufacturerSpecific:false, manufacturerId:0000, command:02, direction:01, data:[38, C2, 13, 03, 00, 10, 45, 54, 55, 31, 2D, 49, 4F, 54, 2D, 5A, 69, 67, 62, 65, 65, 00]]

dev:542023-05-12 22:34:20.437debugKompresor parse: description is catchall: 0104 EF00 01 01 0040 00 AB6E 01 00 0000 02 01 38C213030010455455312D494F542D5A696762656500

dev:542023-05-12 22:34:20.275infoKompresor (18) AlarmSet2 : 67174575

dev:542023-05-12 22:34:20.271debugKompresor parse: Desc Map: [raw:catchall: 0104 EF00 01 01 0040 00 AB6E 01 00 0000 02 01 38C11200000C0101006403010113040100AF, profileId:0104, clusterId:EF00, clusterInt:61184, sourceEndpoint:01, destinationEndpoint:01, options:0040, messageType:00, dni:AB6E, isClusterSpecific:true, isManufacturerSpecific:false, manufacturerId:0000, command:02, direction:01, data:[38, C1, 12, 00, 00, 0C, 01, 01, 00, 64, 03, 01, 01, 13, 04, 01, 00, AF]]

dev:542023-05-12 22:34:20.266debugKompresor parse: description is catchall: 0104 EF00 01 01 0040 00 AB6E 01 00 0000 02 01 38C11200000C0101006403010113040100AF

dev:542023-05-12 22:34:20.231errorjava.lang.NumberFormatException: null on line 1060 (method parse)

kkossev · May 13, 2023, 5:46am

Before making new tests, please update the driver again.

Also, let me know what is the approximately power of the load.

LeDo · May 13, 2023, 5:54am

You Made some changes?

Well o the message came to late

I followed the previous path and the device was found the driver was picked out of the box... unfortunettley it doesn't Control the device anymore the device is offline.

Tuya Zigbee Metering Plug

Tuya Zigbee Metering Plug

Włącznik Laser

dev:552023-05-13 07:48:00.058traceKompresor Malarnia sendZigbeeCommands : [he raw 0x40A5 1 0x01 0x0B04 {10 00 00 0B 05 05 05 08 05}, delay 200]

dev:552023-05-13 07:48:00.028debugKompresor Malarnia polling all 0x0B04 attributes

dev:552023-05-13 07:48:00.026debugKompresor Malarnia polling.. refreshAll is false

dev:552023-05-13 07:48:00.022debugKompresor Malarnia autoPoll()

dev:552023-05-13 07:47:33.472traceKompresor Malarnia sendZigbeeCommands : [he raw 0x40A5 1 0x01 0x0B04 {10 00 00 0B 05 05 05 08 05}, delay 200, he raw 0x40A5 1 0x01 0x0702 {10 00 00 00 00}, delay 200, he rattr 0x40A5 0x01 6 0 {}, delay 2000]

dev:552023-05-13 07:47:33.442debugKompresor Malarnia polling all 0x0B04 attributes

dev:552023-05-13 07:47:33.440debugKompresor Malarnia polling.. refreshAll is true

dev:552023-05-13 07:47:33.438infoKompresor Malarnia refresh()...

dev:552023-05-13 07:47:00.055traceKompresor Malarnia sendZigbeeCommands : [he raw 0x40A5 1 0x01 0x0B04 {10 00 00 0B 05 05 05 08 05}, delay 200]

dev:552023-05-13 07:47:00.027debugKompresor Malarnia polling all 0x0B04 attributes

dev:552023-05-13 07:47:00.026debugKompresor Malarnia polling.. refreshAll is false

dev:552023-05-13 07:47:00.022debugKompresor Malarnia autoPoll()

dev:552023-05-13 07:46:00.062traceKompresor Malarnia sendZigbeeCommands : [he raw 0x40A5 1 0x01 0x0B04 {10 00 00 0B 05 05 05 08 05}, delay 200]

dev:552023-05-13 07:46:00.032debugKompresor Malarnia polling all 0x0B04 attributes

dev:552023-05-13 07:46:00.031debugKompresor Malarnia polling.. refreshAll is false

dev:552023-05-13 07:46:00.027debugKompresor Malarnia autoPoll()

dev:552023-05-13 07:45:00.100traceKompresor Malarnia sendZigbeeCommands : [he raw 0x40A5 1 0x01 0x0B04 {10 00 00 0B 05 05 05 08 05}, delay 200]

kkossev · May 13, 2023, 6:00am

Yep. the device is offline at the moment..

Did you pair it again to HE ?
You can also switch off the 'Automatic Polling' option, this device should report the parameters automatically.

LeDo · May 13, 2023, 6:05am

Yes i paired it and it was found. so its in range.
Switch back to old driver ad change to new one?
Worked before:)

kkossev · May 13, 2023, 6:08am

Try pairing it again, currently, nothing is received from the device...
Do you have a C-8 or a C-7 hub?

If paired successfully (and if the device stays connected), you should see debug log messages coming automatically from this device, even when using the HE inbuilt 'Device' driver.

LeDo · May 13, 2023, 6:12am

C8
Maybe there is need to reset the device itself. There is a switch pairing/work on it.
I deleted the device and switched to pairing and it was found now it cant connect to hub.

Yeah Ill re pair it but later on another tasks at hand.

kkossev · May 13, 2023, 6:15am

Do you have a second device using this driver? I see another “Tuya Zigbee Metering Plug” in your previous post…

Maybe you are looking at wrong device / wrong logs?